Important Questions

This dialogue has been taking place over the last day in response to Dr. Thomas Ferrer's post yesterday. A new resident asked some very thoughtful questions that are likely on the mind of many Ruston citizens regarding Ruston's possible change to Tacoma Fire Department for service. This is long, but both the questions and answers are important (especially Dr. Ferrer's at the end):

Anonymous said...
I have many questions about the RFD issue and i think i'll list them and ask for anybody who can give some insight to respond. 1. Has there ever been any point in the past where RFD was incapable of providing the service they are there to do? 2. Is this issue more personal, financial, or is the debate necessary for the town future securities? 3. What brought it all on? 4. Is my family in any danger any way by have a volunteer department as oppsed to TFD? Is it the same training, Standards, Philosophies they are ran by? I think i am really needing to know both sides of the story and whats truth vs. rumor. -Mark
January 8, 2008 10:01 AM

Lyle Hardin said...
1)'..was RFD incapable of performing in the past?' The only period during which the RFD was not functional was the time between when ASARCO closed and Ruston contracted with Tacoma. Bob Pudlo would be the authority on this time frame. He was responsible for creating the RFD volunteer department shortly thereafter.
2)'Is this issue more personal, financial,..' For the members of the Fire Committee, of which I was one, the issue was neither personal nor financial, the issue was what was best to protect the community.
3)'What brought it all on' That question should be directed in a public forum to Council Member Stebner, who made the motion for himself to negotiate a contract with Tacoma for fire services.
4)'Is your family in any danger ... by having a volunteer department?' The Fire Committee concluded that the RFD has been providing the services that a fire department is expected to deliver and doing it in an extremely professional and proficient manner. I refer you to the Fire Committee reports, which you may obtain from Town Hall, for a delineation of the training, background and experience of our volunteer members.
January 8, 2008 10:42 AM

Mark said...
I apprectiate the response lyle. I dont think i asked the right question on #1 I guess what i was wondering is as RFD gets sent out on calls has there ever been a time where they say forgot to put gas in the fire truck? I just made this up and it isnt a rumor thats floating around yet but there are many rumors like is circulating and i was more wondering if these rumors are part of a smear campaign against RFD or has there been some issues that might question the safety of citizens?
January 8, 2008 10:56 AM

Lyle said...
Mark, during our analysis, the Fire Committee did not find an single instance of the RFD not responding appropriately and Expediently.
January 8, 2008 12:15 PM

Chief Don Torbet said...
I have not posted on this forum as most of what I say seems to be misused and changed by those seeking to discredit the Ruston Fire Department. I have answered all questions posed, honestly and to the the best of my knowledge and ability. I will do my best to address your questions.
1. Has there ever any point in the past where RFD was incapable of providing the service they are there to do?
Answer: Not to the best of my knowledge. As I recall, we have used our Mutual Aid Agreement with the City of Tacoma a few times for larger indedents; maybe 4 times in my 24 years. Most recently was the Cole Tavern fire 3 or 4 years ago. Due to the possible complexity of the scene, our Asst. Fire Chief requested a full commericial response. I concur with his decision.
2. Is this issue more personal, or is the debate necessary for the town future securities?
Answer: To be honest, it appears to be personal. I like to give people reasonable doubt but after the published Ruston Fire Committee Report, it seems no amount of reason will be considered by a few. I have always welcomed examination of the Ruston Fire Department. I think the Ruston Fire Committee did a thorough and exhaustive job in they're efforts. We must always be willing to look at ways of providing enhanced service.
3.What brought it all on?
Answer: To the best of my recollection, Councilman Stebner felt that we were not responding to calls for service in the Town of Ruston. I gave him information documenting our response to EVERY CALL we were "dispatched" to. I also gave him information as to the reason Tacoma Fire Department had been in the Town of Ruston on calls for service. I personally spent over 40 hours on the phone investigating why Ruston Fire Department was not being dispathed to fire and medical aid calls within the boundaries of Ruston. I finally was able to convince the phone company (Qwest) that Ruston did indeed exist. They're new program installed at LESA was zip code based and had combined Ruston with Tacoma. Mr. Stebner refused to believe my explanation.
5. Is my family in any danger by having a volunteer department as opposed to TFD? Is it the same training, Standards, Philosophies they are ran by?
Answer: Medical training is set up, conducted, tested and monitored by the State of Washington and Pierce County Emergency Management. All EMT's in Pierce County are required to pass the same tests and meet the same ongoing training requirements. Our ongoing medical trainer is Lori Bisbing. She is a respected member of the emergency medical community. She is married to a Tacoma Fire Paramedic and has trained many of the counties EMT's. I will use one of her quotes, "I would hold Ruston Fire Department emergency medical skills up against any department in Pierce County, paid or unpaid."
Ruston Fire is also very fortunate to have in their ranks as a fire fighter, Pat Piper. He is the Training Chief at Bates College Fire Training Program. To complment that training, Ruston Fire was awarded a grant and has purchased over $10,000 in fire training materials. Standards are also mandated by the State of Washington. I have not read or studied Tacoma Fire's Philosophy. I would be very surprised to find it lacking in any way. I believe Ruston Fire has an equal committment to excellence. I would just like to remind people that our volunteers are required to be professionl even though they perform their tasks at a reduced monitary rate. I will accept nothing less.
If you or anyone else have other questions, concerns, or comments, I will do my best to address them. Don Torbet, Ruston Fire Chief 253-381-1887 cell number
January 8, 2008 12:40 PM

Chief Don Torbet said...
Mark, I can think of only one incident that has been used in a the present "campaign". The night of the big wind storm over a year ago, the "first out" fire engine failed to start. I used the medical aid van instead to answer a call for a tree down against a house. It was a toss up as to which piece of equipment might be needed. We do have a reserve fire engine should one have been needed. As soon as we handled the call we returned to the station and were able to get the "first out" engine back in service. In the next day or two it was found that the Town of Ruston heating system had failed.
A little history here. When the Town purchased their first deisel powered fire engine, the Town had heat installed in the engine bay. Please remember this is a 1964 Mack Fire Engine. They were designed to be kept in a warm fire bay. They were not equipped with provisions for "cold start" as they are now. After finding this, I installed a engine block heater. This will allow for cold starts, should the Town's heating system fail in the future.
Two things are important here: First: There was no way the Ruston Fire Department could have known or anticipated the failure of the Town's heating system. Second: There is a back up plan in place (the reserve engine) should it be required.
I want to truely thank you for your questions. I seldom hear the rumors and can't address them until someone tells me what they are. Again, if you or others have question and concerns, please ask.Don Torbet, Ruston Fire Chief 253-381-1887
January 8, 2008 1:14 PM

Mark said...
Chief Don-I actually never heard anything about the engine not starting that night of the windstorms and i thank you for being open and honest about it especially in fragile times like this where as you said anything you say will be turned against you and the department. I was very impressed at the fact that you guys were out taking care of our town as fast as you did at such late hours. I saw the medical aid van and didnt think much as to why. I have heard rumors not connected with that night and i think some of these rumors that lyle hardin already cleared up on this blog are definately a big part of the push for TFD over RFD it almost reminds me of when Powell went to the UN pretending we had evidence of WMD's, used alot of words and made some noise and everyone went along with it. After paying quite a bit of attention to this recently i would challenge anyone to put any evidence about why RFD isnt adequate(Rumors not counting as evidence). I would love to set up a public debate with anyone who would like to challenge me on this. Of course this would never happen because i know that it would be the last thing anyone would want as no evidence can be produced. As far as I have seen or heard. Im still trying keeping an open mind about this so hopefully someone will respond from the other side.
January 8, 2008 1:48 PM

Karen said...
It is so refreshing to hear a new voice asking very pertinent questions. I have forwarded your questions to all the elected officials in the town. Hopefully Council members Stebner, Albertson, Everding or Huson will respond with reasons why they do not support our current fire department. Council member Hedrick is on record with his support of the fire committee recommendations.

Thanks for your comments, Mark. Please stay involved!
January 8, 2008 11:05 PM

Thomas J Ferrer MD said...
Much of the information requested could be gleaned from the Ruston Fire Committee Report. It is best viewed in full color on the Big Screen or computer.
I worked on this report for one year with the same questions in my mind (almost exactly worded the way these questions are). I put my name on that report. This is not to be taken lightly. Honesty is the only way someone in my position remains in a position of Trust. My job and responsibility is too important to put at risk for a local issue such as this. People should realize that I work up to 100 hours a week. My job doesn't change if Ruston loses its fire department. I provide trauma care for Pierce County and accept Trauma referrals from the Western Region at times (here to the Pacific Coast). I present and teach regionally. (I have published nationally).
Working on the committee giving up sleep and weekends at times made me question my sanity. The reason that I did it is that Mayor Transue asked me (by way of referral, we did not know each other except as acquaintances). I realize that while I could easily have said that I was too busy (I am), but then I would be shirking a responsibility to a Town in which I live. I could analyze this overall situation (with actual medical expertise as well as emergency and trauma medical expertise) and could ask and seek answers to the questions that you just asked. No one in Town can match my medical credentials. There are only three other civilian surgeons in the Tacoma area with my qualifications. The answers are in the report in a blunt, clear but tactful way.
I will answer your questions again, but I do not want to fall into a "gotcha situation." I have a point of view so my answers will reflect that. I could easily give you answers that would reflect a different point of view. Tacoma Fire Department is an excellent department and provides Fire and emergency medical services to nearly 200,000 Tacomans, surely they can add our 786 residents to their responsibility. It's that simple. However, that's both the easy answer and the problem.
I quickly realized that the real question is that: Can Tacoma FD take care of Ruston's one square mile better than Ruston FD? Tacoma FD has to cover over 50 square miles. Some people will be closer to the Fire station position, while others will be farther away. Some parts of Tacoma are denser so the Fire stations are closer together or have more equipment and personnel. Some parts of Tacoma are more spread out and Fire stations have larger geographical areas to cover.
Look at a map. Ruston is located in one of the "corners" of Tacoma (roughly speaking of course). It is one the edge of the coverage area of the closest fire station. If another fire station has to respond their location is even farther away. This bothered me, logically this means that responders are now farther away. Response time will be longer. If Ruston were actually Tacoma, that would just be our tough luck.
However, there was always another option available, a local fire department that has protected Ruston for 50 years. It has a track record. If an example of an under-performance or incapability had existed, it would have been easy for those wanting to replace the RFD to exploit such a real example.
There have been times that Mutual Aid from Tacoma has been requested and rendered (about less than once every other year). This is part of our System. All Fire Departments have mutual aid agreements. Historically, RFD has provided coverage to TFD (not recently, but when it was needed, RFD played their role). RFD has had a Mutual Aid agreement with TFD for over 25 years. When TFD had about 40% of their Engines fighting the "Atlas Fire" last October, mutual aid agreements that day helped the TFD immensely.
So I looked for, asked these questions (question one in your list), listened out for criticisms relating to a specific example, and evaluated key events and cases (that occured while the Fire Committe was meeting) that reflected the performance of the RFD. Remember, I can break down most cases because of my background. I also had outside sources at my disposal to help me evaluate fire fighting procedures. (I won't claim any expert status, but I can understand. I also have treated fire victims (as a Burn Surgeon) so I know the patient situations and medical problems of Fire.)
Criticisms that came out of political parties (celebrations) associated with Council Members Albertson and Huson focused on lies designed to sow doubt about the capabilitiesof the RFD. They were addressed in the report, but if you heard from a friend that Ruston EMTs can't perform CPR, or have different licenses than Tacoma EMTs, it may not matter what I say. This is why there is no debate planned on the Fire Committee Report. It's hard to spread rumors if you are going to go up against someone of my knowledge and qualifications.
However, when you talk to Residents who have been helped, or saved by RFD, they sing nothing but praises. Many times they are not participating in Government and are not aware of what's going on until they are told, then they come out and tell their personal stories. People usually don't want to talk about their problems. It's the people that potentially need medical care ASAP and cant wait the extra minutes for Tacoma that I am fighting for.
Regarding question 2: I was asked to be involved after the much of this issue started and also asked myself why am I having to put forth such an effort. Was it to recognize that when Ruston had no income, the RFD was asked to deliver care on a shoestring budget? They did so with an excellent performance record. If it was to prepare for growth and thus upgrade RFD capabilities and budgets, thus protect the people, then the time is worth it. If it was to watch Council Members that are unqualified and uneducated in this field choose an alternative that can potentially harm Ruston residents then the best I can do is point out their folly and shortsightedness to not consider all possible consequences. Remember, I do Trauma. People think they are invincible. They don't really think about their FD until they need them.
Is it personal?: yes. What is motivating Council Member Stebner? When the Fire Committee first started meeting and Stebner was participating a Resident member who had no medical background he was asked why. His response was (this is just hearsay so take it with a grain of salt): Once upon a time when he was in the Air Force, he had a bad feeling about somebody, so he got rid of him and felt he made the right decision. Well, he stated something to the effect that he had a bad feeling about Don (Chief Torbet) and wanted to do away with him. Now I didn't put much stock into that answer, but he could never elucidate in a logical way any of his arguments or counterpoints. From my perspective, his thought processes are simple and goal oriented.
He is in the process in accomplishing his goal so if he is successful what does it matter what the motivation was. Once our FD is gone, we will have to live with the consequences. Ruston loses control and oversight of its Fire and Emergency Services. These are ceded to Tacoma.
Is it Financial? I have touched on this in detail in the reports and above. If you look around the world, any town or city needs to spend a certain amount per person to provide a certain level of service. RFD has been doing it well for a much lower cost. Tacoma may give us a good deal because I trashed their last proposal, but if they do it will be for a lot less than they charge their own residents. That will be politics, Ruston will like it, but the average Tacoman might not want to be subsidizing a town who already has a capable FD. I suspect, Ruston will pay one way or another, or we will continue to become Tacoma and it won't matter. Costs will go up eventually. Remember though if TFD has financial problems, Ruston will have no way to shield itself.
Question 3: What brought it on? I used to think that was important. Then I think I heard the answers and could only shake my head. Immature people are playing around with peoples lives under the guise of trying to provide you "safety" by the best available Fire Department (even if they are farther away).
If we were really trying to leverage what's best for Ruston, we would take a long-term view. Build up and control a valuable asset such as our Fire Department, increase its capabilities. When development matures, then an agreement with Tacoma to help them provide care in this part of of North Tacoma/Ruston without losing control would make sense. The other side threw up examples of the mergers of other small towns and their fire departments. They don't even have good insight regarding their own examples of why Ruston should give up its fire department. Their example actually referred to the following situation which they did not know the details.
One small town without a fire station (Algona) merged with a larger city (Auburn) with a much larger fire department as well as another small town Pacific and it's smaller fire department. All the residents voted on this proposal. All three cities then shared a one third representation on the nine person Board of Governors which governed the Valley Regional Fire Authority. The people in Algona that started with no fire department went up to having oversight and a one third say on how Services would be delivered. Ruston gets no fire station and no representation regarding our Fire and Emergency Services. We give away money and have no say. Anybody can do that.
Question 4: Is your family in danger? Is the RFD the same as TFD with regards to training and standards. Are the philosophies the same? This question could also have a long answer as you can tell from above. Based on the long track record of the RFD, the short answer is no (to danger). While I don't have a family, there are several families in Ruston that I have a personal attachment to and also its ingrained in my training to consider this question in any thing that I do. Am I giving the care that I want my family to have?
Your question is really about training and standards. There are many rumors, accusations, statements denigrating the "Training of Ruston EMTs" I covered this in detail in the Fire Committee Report, but as I stated before, it is difficult to fight innuendo. What I did do was evaluate RFD training as best I could do. I had access to them. So did everyone in town if they wanted to do what I did. RFD EMTs earn their license just like everyone else in the State of Washington. They keep their license by participating and keeping up with "continuing education" which is standardized and the term is OTEP (ongoing training and evaluation process)
When I did the report, our EMTs were one hundred percent compliant. I attended some of their classes, I lectured to them about trauma care, I evaluated their base of knowledge, (the emergency medicine side which are 80% of their calls). I did the above part a year before I was asked to serve on the Fire Committee.
This was just me learning on my own about the RFD (and I was invited to teach them). I studied some of their cases and their performance. I got to know them. The senior EMTs that lead our FD are impressive in their resumes and qualifications in emergency medicine and firefighting. They can save my life anytime, they can work on any of my family members. I could never make the statement that Ruston EMTs can't do their job because I would by LYING.
However, almost everyone else can make that statement and not worry about whether its the truth or not. They don't have my abilities, education or training to evaluate EMTs so they can say whatever they want to sow doubt. Ask someone who was a patient of theirs, then make up your own mind.
The firefighting questions can only be answered credibly by the Firefighters that are available to you to be asked. I asked firefighting questions to all those that presented to our committee, to Chief Torbet, to Pat Piper (Ruston Firefighter and EMT) who trains firefighters at BATES Technical College. Check his qualifications. My observation is that they train hard, can fight fire and save lives. Ruston Firefighters train for the situations that they will encounter in Ruston. Tacoma firefighters train for the situations that occur in Tacoma and have specialized units as do other large Fire Departments. If a hazardous waste train exploded in Ruston, we would need help.
What's rumor and what's truth?Its easy to spread rumor, you often don't have to attach you name or credibility to rumor. Truth can be easy too. Just don't confuse "beliefs" with truth even though they may be one and the same.
When you look at my slides from the first presentation and most of the second presentation, the "facts" on my slides are backed by references. When you publish something in an official manner and you put you name on it, it better be the truth. My answers today include my personal reflections that are additive to what is part of the Ruston Fire Committee reports. You can tell my opinion and point of view is part of my answers. You can tell when I am passing along hearsay. That's why they were not published in an official manner.

Thomas J Ferrer MD
January 9, 2008 8:06 AM